News + Views + To Do’s | LGBTQ+ in Law with Guest John McElroy, Hausfeld & Co LLP

Hello, and welcome to another installment of LISI’s News + Views + To Do’s where we talk to legal industry professionals about what’s going on in their world, how they see our industry changing and what they think about that. And lastly, their advice for our audience. I’m Ann Caskey, one of the legal writers here at LISI, and today I’m joined by my good friend, John McElroy. How are you John?

John:

Hi, Ann. I’m good, thanks.

Ann:

Thanks for joining us here today. John is the head of commercial disputes for our Hausfeld UK, and more recently the head of Hausfeld’s Global LGBTQ+ Alliance Working Group. Thanks for joining us. Now John, you and I’ve been friends for many years, probably more than we would care to mention. We come from the same little corner of paradise, which I see pictured on your wall behind you in Ireland. We went to Belfast to study law together and started our careers in London together. We talk a lot, personally, but we’ve never really discussed your professional experience over your views on being LGBTQ+ in law, so today I thought we could set this straight. I saw that you recently had an article published in The Lawyer in recognition of Pride month and wanted to kind of talk to you more about that and discuss how LGBTQ+ rights are in the legal industry, both on your side of the ocean and London, and here in the U.S. where I am. I think there’ve been a lot of changes in recent years. What do you think about that? What’s new?

John:

Hi, Ann. And good to talk to you. And you’re right, we talk about lots of things, but probably not about work when we catch up. But yeah, I think, the last couple of years in particular, I think because of what we’ve all been through with COVID, there has been a real focus, I think, and a push in that period to watch out for employees, for all reasons, but also particularly minority employees. And I think in that, I’ve certainly seen in London a real push on alliance working groups, which obviously you just said, I’m the chair of our global working group. And looking at that in the context of encouraging and promoting minorities and making sure people have a voice in organizations. And I think we’ve moved a lot from the last 20 years when we started out working together. And I think that has to be, it’s all positive, but there’s a lot of work to be done. But I think the alliances coming out of the last few years have been a real positive and that’s definitely new.

Ann:

And what kind of practical things does your global alliance do? What kind things do you do as the head of that?

John:

Yeah, so we have various global alliances now, before that we had our own internal diversity equality, and inclusivity groups within each of our offices. And that covered all sorts of minorities rather than focused on one in particular. And we’ve set the alliances up because we were just conscious that as a relatively small firm with only a few hundred people, it’s quite hard to have a big group for any minority in any one office. So by doing that and spreading it across globally and opening it up as an alliance. So therefore people who are allies, so people who maybe have children who identify as LGBTQ+ or siblings, or parents that they have somebody to talk to and learn about, and that has been a real success.

And I think what’s really interesting is we do have representation from all our jurisdictions in the group. People come at it from different angles and have different views. And we try to do sort of global events, global things that enable us all to communicate. So generally we have at least one speaker, external speaker, every year, and we do that as a fireside chat as a group, but we also then mark various different days within the LGBTQ+ calendar, whether that’s a day which marks the transgender movement or Pride month or International Lesbian Day, whatever it is. And we tend to send out emails and do things around that, just to make sure, because as we know, not everybody is comfortable being out at work as to their true selves and to encourage them to know that they’re in a place that minorities are welcomed and encouraged and being vocal about those by our own personal lives is a positive for both, for us and indeed our clients as well.

Ann:

And do you find that there are alliances or any kind of network or support like that just within the local legal community, prior to you having that alliance within your firm, is there a good support network within the legal community in London or broader?

John:

Yeah. And certainly in big cities like London and also I’m sure in places like New York and Washington and Los Angeles, there are definitely big organizations where, and networking events for people to come together. And that has been the case. We have an organization called InterLaw, well, I guess it’s in the UK, but it’s largely in London, which covers various. It started off actually as a gay mens networking group probably about 15 years ago and then has diversified out and now it covers not only the LGBTQ+ community, but also disability race, gender, it’s quite a big and successful network. And as a result of that, what has been very positive coming out that’s a big enough network to run surveys and analysis as to how the legal industry is coming to terms with minorities and dealing with addressing our own issues and making sure that we’re welcome.

So there are bigger organizations out there, but I think again, it’s quite difficult, if you think about it being difficult to be out, it’s quite difficult to walk into a network where you’re surrounded by lawyers from other law firms or other business other businesses with legal groups, as opposed to going into a social venue where you’re not there having something in common in that way.

Ann:

One thing from just what I’m hearing you say about the difference nearly between that InterLaw network and ones like it and your Hausfeld Alliance is I like that the Hausfeld Alliance seems to incorporate everybody and not that people would be excluded I assume, from in, InterLaw network, but I think it just makes it a firm-wide approach and that we can all benefit from it, that everyone can benefit from it and learn from it more so than a network that is designed just for, and events that are designed just for people in the LGBTQ+ community to go to. And not that everybody shouldn’t have those, but I do love first all to have the opportunity to learn and change. Because I think we all need that.

John:

Yes. Oh, well, when we set ours up, it was very much on the basis that to encourage people who don’t identify, but who are allies to attend just to bring a different perspective to it as well, but also for education purposes. And also it enables people who may identify within that community, but who feel that they’re still not comfortable enough to be out in that community to still be attending. And nobody’s asking questions as to why they’re attending. Same applies, I think obviously one of the challenges of the LGBTQ+ community is it’s not physically identifiable as to you falling within that community. Whereas we also have a women’s alliance group and that has men attending it. And that was again encouraged for that same reason. Again, our racial awareness group has our white employees attending it.

So that it isn’t just to the particular minority group, but actually for everybody to understand the challenges that maybe they’re facing in the workplace or outside, and then just a forum to have conversations and to learn. I think we did an event last year with the ACLU so one of our global Pride events and on that was on transgender rights. And it was extremely well attended. It was all virtual obviously because we were still in the throes of COVID, but it just seemed like everybody has been such an informative and educational means of spreading information that was coming from people who actually identify in that community. And oh, I think the timing of the reason we chose to work on the “T” of the LGBTQ+ last year was that obviously we were going through the Olympics and there were challenges for transgender people in the Olympics and in sport. And that was one of the topics we wanted to cover. So I think that was really, really important. And the feedback from that was extremely positive.

Ann:

Yeah. And do you think that visibility in other industries and like sports celebrities and things like that, do you think that’s helping all of us and pushing progress within the legal industry as well as just broadly?

John:

Yeah, absolutely. I think one of, I hate to use the word “normal,” but it is still how the world referable to, I guess, a vanilla family with 2.4 children, but if you have celebrities, if you have people on TV, people in sport who are out and comfortable with their identity, then that is a huge bonus for people coming through in a non-celebrity industry. I think obviously there has been significant challenges of getting recognition, whether it’s on LGBTQ+ or race or gender or whatever, in sport and celebrity. But I think having those people as role models and being positive role models as well is really key.

And then there are certainly I can think of a number of people who are presenters in the U.S., but also in the UK who lead by example. And when I talk to heterosexual people about a gay TV personality, it’s not the first thing they think of when it’s that person, they think of actually how good they are at doing their job. And then that feeds through to what we do because I certainly like to think that certainly when I’m introduced to somebody for the first time, I’m not introduced as an LGBTQ+ partner, I’m introduced as the commercial disputes partner. This is what I do. And that is just from a work purpose, that’s the most important aspect, but being myself and be able to have conversations with them about my life is quite important for building our relationship.

Ann:

Yeah. And so I think we all agree things are changing. Do you think they’re changing quickly enough or what’s next for us? What do we need to be pushing for?

John:

They’re definitely changing. They’re definitely not changing quick enough. And that doesn’t just apply to LGBTQ+ it applies to all minorities. You just have to look at when we talk about certainly in the legal press here, there’s a lot of talk about when it comes to fairness and equity in salaries. People of minorities are generally less well paid than they’re than their heterosexual white male colleagues.

Ann:

I’ll be honest. I’ve never thought of it that in relation to this issue, which I know was ignorant of me, but we talk about it in relation to women and in relation to people of color. But I’ve never heard that discussion before. So that’s the case, then?

John:

It is, one of the InterLaw surveys did an analysis on it. And it is still heterosexual white meals who are the best paid in law. It is also the case that I think straight female women are the worst paid. So the LGBTQ+ do fall somewhere in the middle. And sadly the numbers certainly in London from a racial perspective are often so low that the statistics are not really very well available, but again, they certainly fall in the lower bracket. So there’s a lot of progress to be made.

But also I think in looking at from, obviously you’re in the US and I’m in the UK and in Europe, I think where I see, and certainly looking from the outside in, there seems to have been significantly more progress for the transgender community in the U.S. than there has been here. Obviously part of the challenge anywhere is, and I said this at the start, when we talk about a small firm, therefore if you have, I think the statistics are something like three and a half percent of lawyers in England and Wales identify as LGBTQ+. So therefore if you have 100 lawyers in your office, you have statistically three or four who identify and LGBTQ+ obviously covers a very broad spectrum. So you could have one from four different minorities within that.

And I think obviously that has an impact here where we have a population of over 60 million. The U.S. has a much more significant population, therefore are maybe dealing with it better because of numbers. But equally that may be because I’m looking at it from a London perspective and looking at New York, Washington, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, wherever. Big cities that maybe reflect more than the rest of the US in the same way as we could look across Europe and certainly see that France and the UK and Spain and Ireland are much more advanced than maybe jurisdictions like Poland and Romanian and that area.

Ann:

Well, I know you’re always jet-setting off to one place or another, so I’m sure you have a perspective of every one of those places you just mentioned. There was one thing I’m jumping a lot here, but I really didn’t want to miss talking about this because it was something you discussed in your article in The Lawyer, and it was about authenticity versus legitimacy. What do you see as authenticity for LGBTQ+ people here in law?

John:

Yeah, well, I think what I said was legitimacy, we have it because I think certainly in our jurisdictions it is, unlike 30 years ago, it’s now legal to identify as an LGBTQ+ person. It’s also legal to have same-sex marriages, all of that kind of thing certainly developed. So that is a legitimacy. In terms of authenticity, it’s then following that through as individuals and being our true selves and not feeling that we can’t be. So I guess unlike when I started out and when I was a junior lawyer and felt that I wasn’t able to come out and actually needed to change firms to do so, that was about me being authentic to myself and actually deciding that if I cannot be who I am here, then I need to move and make that change. And that’s, I think with that authenticity then enables people coming through after us to go, “this is acceptable.”

And this is one of the things I think is so important to make sure that we have role models within law firms within business, right at the top who have been rewarded, not because they are a minority, but because of their abilities to do the job, but their qualities from having had the challenge as they’ve had a face to get there.

Ann:

Right. The resilience and the grit, as we often like to say. What do you think, thinking of our to-dos here at firms and other people, individuals in the industry can do to allow people to be their authentic selves and to make this a more comfortable situation for everyone in the office?

John:

Yeah. And this is something, again, I touched on when I spoke to The Lawyer about this, I guess in June for Pride month, is that establishing these alliances within firms is the first step. And then it’s about if you are a firm where you only have 10 people in your alliance, then you need to start reaching out and working with other firms who also have alliances. So actually working across and not seeing ourselves as competitors to each other, but seeing ourselves as colleagues across different firms, across different businesses and learning from that. I think that’s a step that still needs to take place. Otherwise, we end up back in the closet within the firm.

And one of the things I think I said certainly for me as a gay man, every time I meet somebody, I have to come out to them. I have to. And I have to choose the time to do that. And that’s something we have to do all the time. If we can make that easier by having networks and people in those positions being comfortable with themselves so that the junior lawyers coming through can see that this is the right place for me. This is something that accepts me for who I am, then they can make those informed decisions.

Ann:

So wrapping that up, what would you say to someone starting out today in law, who is LGBTQ+? What advice would you give them?

John:

Yeah, well, I think… As all students and young lawyers come looking for their first job will be doing, they will be researching and they research on the size of the firm, the type of work that they do, the salaries that they pay, but equally they should be looking if you are from any minority, looking at what that firm does for the minorities. Who are their spokespeople? Are they comfortable with themselves? Is this a place I want to work? Because as important as it is to be well remunerated for the work you’re doing, you also need to be really happy at what, given that it’s the place that you will spend more of your time in your week than anywhere else.

You choose your friends carefully. You should also choose your employer carefully and make sure they fit to what your ethos is and whatever it is, whether that is a minority or a belief when it comes to human rights or whatever it is choosing the right place. I think that’s a key thing, especially for somebody from a minority, looking at it, going what’s out there about firms, about their people? And if they have people who are good role models, they will be talking about that. And they’ll be information available.

Ann:

Yeah. Well, John, I’m glad you chose me as a friend, and I’m very grateful for you giving up some of your day for us today. I know you’re very busy, so thank you for coming on today.

John:

It’s been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Ann:

Thank you. And thank you to our listeners, our next episode of News + Views + To Do’s will be out in a couple of weeks. We hope you’ll join us again then.

 

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